Interview With Johnny Williams Part 3: Making Music...

This is the third installment of the interview with Johnny Williams, a musician with a long career from playing guitar with Joe Tex, to learning his chops with Henry "Blue Boy" Hubbard, to leading his own bands and performing for over 40 years. Click on the links above to read the other installments...

Back to the early 1970s, and Johnny Williams, having studied at the feet of bluesman H L Hubbard, initially considered a military career. After finishing his stint with the Air Force, Johnny returned to Baytown. One night a friend took him to the most popular club in Houston, Dome Shadows, and had the bandleader call Williams up to sing a few songs. Neither knew it happened to be the last night for the featured vocalist. The band offered him the job. Johnny didn't know the band, The Jokers, also had a recording contract with Pic 1 Records. At 23, recording as Johnny Williams & The Jokers, he recorded Long Black Veil, a song first sung by Lefty Frizzle, and made popular by Johnny Cash, as a flipside to the song Dearest Darling. They also recorded some other tracks such as Won't You Forgive. The all-night DJ at KILT flipped it over. It became a runaway local No.1 hit.








Johnny recorded his most recent album in late 2004, released in 2005, titled Volume One. It gave Johnny the chance to select some of the best musicians in Houston, Texas, and a chance for a musical reunion with his old friend Mickey Gilley, bandleader, singer and club owner during the 1970s.


"All entertainers, I'm sure, will tell you there was a time during their career when they felt like giving up ... twice in my career when I faced that crossroad Mickey Gilley gave me an opportunity ... to keep pursuing my dream..."






Leaving the Dome Shadows band, Williams went to work with Mickey Gilley at the Nesadel club in Pasadena, Texas. Gilley would sing the first 30 minutes of a set with his band. Mickey, incidentally, once recorded with producer Lelan Rogers (brother of Kenny Rogers), who also helped produce Esther Phillips' country soul classic Release Me (a No.1 r&b hit). As featured singer Williams would follow with 15 minutes, backed up by Gilley. When Williams left the Nesadel, Johnny Lee, a future country star, took his place.

"If I had stayed with Gilley I might have been in Urban Cowboy [the film, starring John Travolta, which showcased country music in a similar way to how Saturday Night Fever did for disco, and filmed at Gilley's club] and recorded a song for the album. Johnny Lee has never thanked me for giving up my job at the Nesadel! ... That old Nesadel band was one of the best bands I ever worked with and performing at the Nesadel and at Gilley's was some of the most fun I've ever had..."

Johnny formed the The Johnny Williams Four, later the Johnny Williams Band, playing in clubs in Houston and across the region. It was one of the first bands in town doing dance music with a horn section and a "mellotron" which sounded like real strings. Johnny explained to me the reason behind this unusual range of instruments:

"I wasn’t doing any country when I had that band. When doing songs like Frankenstein by Edgar Winter, psychedelic instruments (mini moog) came in real handy. And when I did ballads that required strings the melletron was the only instrument at that time that sounded like strings. With horns, a moog synthesizer and a melletron there really wasn’t anything we couldn’t do."

Johnny's band were capable of playing across every style of music, from r&b, country, blues, pop, rock, and rock n'roll. Playing as a house band at a club for long regular stints had great advantages and for Johnny, much more fun, than touring:

"If you’re not the lead act, I don’t really see any advantages, maybe getting an education by travelling to so many different places. When I was travelling with Mickey Gilley, long after I had a hit record I couldn’t stand being on the road. Not much fun!"

Johnny recorded for Epic Records, working with the songwriter Mickey Newbury and Johnny Cash's former keyboard player Larry Butler as producer. He nearly secured another crossover hit with the song He'll Break Your Heart.

The advent of disco and the rise of the DJ greatly changed the club scene, and bands like Johnny's were less in demand, and found it harder to find places to play. Johnny stopped touring and performed at Gilley's Club for four years, which by now was a mecca for country fans from all over Texas, and received airplay on over 500 stations thanks to the weekly "Live From Gilley's" show. In 1989, Johnny decided to retire from music.

Ironically, the last decade has seen a revival of interest in authentic local music scenes and real musicians, once considered buried under MTV. After 12 years away from music, Johnny took up his guitar and plugged in the Hammond B3 for another recording session. His new album brings all of his experience together, and alot of influences. Johnny wanted to explain the unique musical circumstances his generation of musicans have encountered:

"Let me say that I think that I was born in a very special and unique era of time. I guess that would be a good way to put it. I like to preface everything I say with the words “in my opinion,” so let me start out by saying that in my opinion the way music and my generation came together will never happen again. Let me explain. Most of the music that we hear today was not handed down to my generation from another generation. I live through the birth of every genre of most of the music we hear today. I was there during the birth so to speak. Consequently my taste in music was nurtured by all genres of music, from one end of the spectrum to the other which included everything from big bands to heavy metal. I’ve been influenced by all kinds of music and all kinds of artist."

What were your earliest musical memories?

"I started really getting into music when I was about five or six years old. At that time I listened to whatever was popular. My first memories were listening to Glenn Miller, Hank Williams Sr, Patti Page, and Tennessee Ernie Ford. Then from the age of about twelve to fourteen I started listening to blues or more appropriately Bbop, i. e., The Drifters, Lloyd Price etc. Then Elvis and Jerry Lee came into my life when I was about 16. From there you have to factor in everything that’s happened since then to the present. I’ve listened to it all. Growing up I was exposed to so many different kinds of music it would be impossible to zero in on any one kind. Today I’m almost totally and exclusively a jazz listener. That’s just about all I listen to, not the New Orleans jazz but true jazz, Oscar Peterson, Charlie Bird, and all the new jazz artists that have come along. I’m not much on fusion but other than that it’s mostly jazz."

Who are your favourite Hammond organ players?

"There are so many. Jimmy Smith, Jimmy McGriff, Brother Jack McDuff, Joey DeFrancesco, Tony Monaco just to mention a few."

White and black musicians, in all different parts of the South, seem to find a lot of common ground between country and rnb. Is this something you also find? Do you have any thoughts on why this occurs?

"I think it comes together because of the driving rhythm. [Like r&b music]... Country music today has a good hard driving beat."

Where do you think southern American music will go in the future?

"I don’t really know but I worry because black artists aren’t picking up the blues. I worry because nobody is learning to play the B3 and nobody seems to be interested in learning how to play the blues. I really don’t care for popular chart music today, rap, hip-hop etc. However, as long as people will accept crap it will be financially profitable to dispense it."

Many bands, especially in Britain, have tried to pick up the musical styles of the South. There are even some country-noir influenced bands in Brighton. Can it be truly taken up elsewhere in the world, where it wasn't 'born'?

"... my own recordings reflect my eclectic taste ... I will probably cover the gamut of all genres on my CDs, country ballads, pop, blues, rock n’ roll, soul... I don’t think good music and especially music that makes people want to dance has any language or cultural barriers."

Many thanks to Johnny Williams for all of his recollections. You can buy Johnny Williams' latest album by visiting his website store here. You can listen to clips from the Urban Cowboy soundtrack at this page at Amazon.com. Mickey Gilley sings the Ben E. King classic Stand By Me, and Here Comes The Hurt Again. For an interesting recollection of what Gilley's country music club was like in the 1970s and 1980s when Johnny was a staple act, go to Mickey Gilley's website.

Interview With Johnny Williams Part 2: East Austin Blues

This is the second part of the interview with Johnny Williams, the r&b musician from Texas. In Part One, Johnny described growing up next door to Joe Tex, and his introduction to the music scene playing guitar for a stint in Joe's band. In this section, we find out more about the important blues scene of East Austin, and his friendship with blues guitarist Henry "Blues Boy" Hubbard.




Johnny went to study at the University of Texas in Austin in the early 1960s, and soon became intrigued by the blues music scene of the East Side. How did Johnny's family take his decision to become a musician?

"They didn’t like it until I had a hit record and started getting popular. Then they were all for it. My father wanted me to be a lawyer."

It was on visits to the East Side clubs that Johnny would meet his other musical mentor, H.L. Hubbard. Henry "Blues Boy" Hubbard had been playing through the 1950s with his house band The Jets:

"The Jets were the house band at Charlie’s Playhouse there in Austin, Texas where everybody went to dance. It was practically the only club in town that had good live blues. At that time in my eyes they were wonderful. However, I was a novice when I met H. L. I don’t know how I would judge them today now that I’ve got about 40 years experience under my belt but at the time I thought they hung the moon, I just about worshipped H. L.

He introduced me to jazz and the Hammond B3, which, along with the piano, is still my favorite instrument. I'd wait until he got off around midnight and go eat barbecue and then listen to music, or he'd teach me guitar until the sun came up."

H.L. and Johnny are still great friends, and talk on the phone or visit on a regular basis.

Another young blues fan of the time was Allen "Sugar Bear" Black. Similarly impressed by his experiences, he still works at Antones House of Blues in the district. Interviewed by the Austin Chronicle, he recalled:

"I was a youngster in 1965, going to Charlie's Playhouse. I saw bands like Al 'TNT' Braggs, Tyrone Davis, and Albert Collins, but mostly it was Blues Boy Hubbard and his Jets on the weekends. It was basically a Blue Monday club for blacks, but on Friday and Saturday nights, it was 95% white -- kids from colleges and the University of Texas. It was real unusual to have that. They didn't fear coming to the Eastside; people didn't get their cars vandalized, stuff like that. More like it is now, with blacks and whites in clubs together."

The Austin Chronicle also interviewed Henry Hubbard himself. He thinks that there were some economic benefits to this growing scene:

"Charlie's brought the white kids from the west side and the runoff enabled the other clubs to have a heck of a business. Like Sam's Showcase on 12th Street and the IL Club across the corner from Charlie's Playhouse. And when Charlie's was full, the kids just said, 'We'll go to the IL Club,' because he had a band, too. They just tore that club down a year or two ago."

Other clubs in Eastside Austin during the 60s were the Derby, Good Daddy's, the Victory Grill, and Ernie's Chicken Shack, a popular after-hours bar that would host blues music into the early hours. Henry Hubbard would be influential to numerous other blues artists who joined his band, including Big Pete Pearson, W.C. Clark, Matthew Robinson and trumpeter Donald 'Duck' Jennings.

Sadly, from the mid-seventies,the customers who had sustained the Eastside blues performers were looking for new sounds and new entertainments, elsewhere in the city. Venues closed down en masse, or transformed to try to meet new tastes. H.L. Hubbard described the situation for the r&b artists:

"The club owners kept coming and going. Get a band to a club for a year, someone else buys the club, maybe he don't want a band."

In recent years, several local initiatives have worked hard to collect, preserve, and pass on the heritage of the East Austin blues scene, while the area around 11th Street is providing more and more venues for blues music. And Henry Blues Boy Hubbard is still going strong as a part of that scene. Johnny Williams will be pleased to hear that:

"Musically speaking, I give him credit for what I am today. He introduced me to jazz and jazz artists that I would probably not have found on my own. For that I’m forever thankful to him. For my definition of soul he is a very soulful person and I think a lot of that rubbed off on me."

Johnny thanks Hubbard again in the dedication for his new album "Johnny Williams Volume 1":

"Thank you for your patience, your friendship, and all those lessons in the wee hours of the morning after you had already performed all night at Charlie's, not to mention the great BBQ at 2:00 in the morning. The time we spend together is profoundly enjoyable, and I hope there will be many more opportunities in the years to come."

Watch a video clip of Henry Blues Boy Hubbard performing "Everyday I Have The Blues" with the Texas Eastside Kings here

If you live in Austin, see them play live today, 19th June, at the Central Market at 6pm, admission free!

You can buy their new CD at Dialtone Records.

Information about Austin blues is being archived at three locations: at the KLRU website as part of their links on the PBS TV series "The Blues", at the Blues Society of Austin, and at the Blues Family Tree Project website.

Many thanks to Johnny Williams for his recollections. Other quotes taken from interviews conducted by Margaret Moser. For the full story of the East Side Blues scene, read the whole article at the Austin Chronicle.

Interview: Johnny Williams remembers Joe Tex

We are going back to Soul Country, but this time we have a guide to show the way...






Johnny Williams has played in blues, country, soul, rock, r&b, and jazz veins, building up regular followings in clubs in his native Texas during the 1970s, and is best known for his hit single Long Black Veil. He now writes and records.

Johnny very kindly agreed to answer a few questions about his career, and how he came to meet, work, and be influenced by his friends and mentors Joe Tex and Austin bluesman Henry "Blue Boy" Hubbard.

In this part of the interview, Johnny Williams describes how he came to meet Joe Arrington Jr, or Joe Tex.

He didn't have far to go - Johnny actually grew up next door to Joe, his first major musical influence:

"Joe's mother, Cherry Sue, was a maid for the couple who lived next door to my house. They were one of the more affluent families that lived in Baytown at that time. It may have been called Goose Creek at that time. I can't remember what year the name was changed from Goose Creek to Baytown. They, the Sanders owned Culpepper Furniture Company. Anyway they had living quarters for their help and Cherry Sue lived there on the premises. Actually the maid's quarters was attached to the house. Joe would periodically stay there with his mother and that's when I met him and go to know him. I don't know exactly how old I was but I could not have been much older than 12, 13 or 14 years old...

...When we were very young - he was 4 to 5 years older - we played lots of games, mostly some kind of ball games. I heard a lot of his songs and ideas as I was growing up. He would come by our house when he was in jr. high, entertain us by singing, playing the piano and telling jokes. Joe was extremely funny. He entertained all of Baytown while in high school."

Joe's father left when he was young. I wondered what Joe's mother, was like:

"Real loving and real sweet and Joe idolized her."

Baytown is now a suburb of Houston, but back in the late 50s, it was still a small town, originally called Goose Creek. Johnny remembers what it was like to grow up there:

"When Joe and I grew up in Baytown the population was around 30,000 people. We hung out mostly in pool halls, drive-in hamburger joints, and going to dances at school sponsored hangouts. We had a dance hall called the Quack Shack because our school mascot was a gander. However when Joe and I were growing up, Baytown was not integrated. Joe went to Carver High, a totally black school. Joe and I were long gone from Baytown when they finally integrated the school district."

I asked Johnny whether there was much interaction between black and white people in the town, or was his friendship with Joe quite rare?

"It was very rare. Blacks still had to sit in the back of the bus, couldn’t eat in white restaurants and had there own public drinking fountain."

Did Johnny remember any particular songs that Joe would play to him, or that he would spin on the radio?

"I don’t remember any particular song or songs. The only things I do remember are some of the little sayings that he later injected into his recordings. For example, if we were playing baseball and Joe hit a homerun he might touch home plate and say, “If Grandma could see me now.” I later heard him say that on one of his recordings. Joe was a natural born comedian and he would perform for 2 or 2,000 people. It would all depend on his mood. And he was moody. Joe was a thinker. He was a philosopher and he started writing a book before he got famous. I don’t know whatever happened to that book but I think the injustice of racism bothered him profoundly."

What were the major hang outs for young people in the town, and what venues were there to encounter music?

"We encountered music everywhere. The radio and jukeboxes mostly but they did have concerts in Houston at the Houston Coliseum. There we could catch all the popular acts at the time, James Brown, Johnny Ace, The Spiders, whoever was hot at the time. When I got into music and had my first hit record, Long Black Veil, I made appearances there from time to time with other acts like Johnny Winter, Roy Head, B.J. Thomas, Kenny Rogers, Mickey Gilley, all the well-known artist from this area. One interesting note: When I was growing up in Baytown at that time there were only two people in the entire city that owned a guitar. When I came back from college, there were about 5 kids on my block that owned guitars."

While studying at the University of Texas, Williams hung around with Joe, who by then was periodically working the Austin music scene...

"Before he made it big, we played a lot of small towns in that area. He didn't really need me in his band but I would go with him and play what little guitar I knew. When he wasn't performing we would spend hours together at his motel listening to music, hanging out and just having fun. He would stay in Austin 2 or 3 weeks; leave; return 6 months later and we'd do it again. My first trip to Nashville was because of Joe ... Joe Tex was a huge influence and I learned a great deal from him."

I asked Johnny how he got on with the band and life on tour:

"I remember Joe’s band, and you’ve got to keep in mind that this was before he got famous, as being extremely irresponsible. That was the antithesis of Joe’s personality. He would get so irritated with them. They would show up for a TV performance or a gig and forget to bring guitar picks and usually didn’t say anything about it until it was time to go on. Joe was not like that. He was extremely responsible. He had his act together. But again that was before he made it big. I never worked with him after he had his first hit which was Hold On To What You’ve Got."








I wondered whether there had been any problems working in a racially-integrated band at that time:

"I only had a problem one time and that was in Taylor, Texas. I got put in jail ostensibly for drinking a beer after hours. At that time you could not drink beer after twelve midnight. I wasn’t drinking. I was using it to put ashes in. I was smoking a cigar. However, when I got put in the squad car the first thing they asked me was, “What are you doing hanging out with a bunch of niggers. That was the real reason I got put in jail. Joe came and bailed me out. I was only in there for a couple of hours. Other than that one instance, I never had a problem. I was living in Austin, Texas at the time and it was extremely integrated when it came to clubs and music. There was a place called Charlie’s Playhouse where all the university kids went to dance and it was integrated. I never saw a problem there. The blacks were extremely friendly. There was no sixth street at that time."

What was the best moment of that first tour for you?

"Appearing with George Jones on George Jones Day in Beaumont, Texas was probably the first big thrill I experienced when I went on tour. George took me to his house and I got to hang out with him and his band. That was exciting at the time."

I asked what Johnny remembers about Joe the most?

"How gifted he was as an entertainer, how magnetic he was, how friendly he was and how much talent he had in so many ways. He was truly a remarkable person...

... Joe was one of the best entertainers I’ve ever seen. He was a true entertainer, a Sammy Davis type. He entertained the people, with comedy, dancing and music. He was fabulous in my eyes. Joe could have been a great stand-up comedian. He was magnetic. He had that intangible quality that people gravitate towards...

...We remained friends until he died at age 49. The last time I saw Joe I played in a foursome in an Austin golf tournament with him, my sister Marian, and Darryl Royal. At that time Joe suggested I record some of his songs. I've recorded two and plan to do more. "

Johnny Williams has recorded a couple of Joe's songs, You Got What It Takes and I Want To (Do Everything For You), on his new CD Johnny Williams: Volume One , which is available to buy at Johnny Williams online store. Check out the sample streams at his website or at CD Baby.

Brown Eyed Handsome Man would like to thank Johnny Williams for his time and for the fascinating memories that he has shared in this interview. Invaluable information and photos kindly provided by Johnny Williams himself, and with permission from the Johnny Williams' website.